OK, but why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel? Stop beating around the bush, geez...rotfl I've found that those who speak in absolutes are usually the most biased for reasons other than the facts.
Oh dear lord, another member with assumption based cause and effect delusions... To restate the obvious, in-line dominance in OTR trucks has absolutely no relevance to light duty trucks (aka pickups). And your "their junk" assertion doesn't even apply to OTR. If you care to see beyond your personal choice justifying biases, do some searches here, even I don't feel like typing it all over yet again…
I wouldn’t go as far as saying that V8's are junk by any means. I think that the duramax is a good engine, along with the PSD. But, I really believe that there are so many people driving the chevys and fords because America has a V8 mentality. I know many people that drive chevy and ford diesel pickups, and when I ask em why they didnt go with the cummins, they say they didnt want a 6 cylinder. Granted these guys arent into diesels like we are and dont know the difference, but I think this is why GM and Ford market V8's. Is the V8 bad, HELL NO!!! Is the Inline 6 better? I think so. The cummins is able to produce more torque with less cubic inches than the others. The 6.0 isnt that much bigger, but Ford is gonna be to be replacing it soon with a bigger V8 to compete with Chevy and Dodge. All in all, all engines are incredible if you compare the diesel engines we drove in the early 80's and early 90's, I think we'd all agree on that. I don’t think GM and Ford are marketing V8's because they're more practical in a light duty truck, but because people love V8 engines.
Now that makes sense. I too love the CTD and I6 has a lot going for it in a pickup or OTR. But it really gets on my nerves the way the same miss-information, propaganda, and FUD is mindlessly chanted over and over again on any and every truck or diesel related site you find. Oh well, that's the internet for you.
What are you a 20 something.... Do you know why you don't see 8V71's, 12V71's, 8V92's, 3408Cats etc. anymore? Smog laws killed them. OTR trucks use the engines they do now because of cost and smog laws and with the 3408 cats not having a trans that would hold up to their torque. Till they trans makers came out with the big 13/15/18 spd roadrangers the only trans that would last behind a 3408 Cat were the big twin stick trans and drivers didn't want the hassle of them. Also there is the weight vs. power issue in OTR trucks. The more it weights the less you can haul. Why don't OTR's use disc brakes? Cost!!!
Hmm... I think Bobbies (and others) bias towards the inlines would be carried into talking about light duty trucks as well. Saying that you are arguing for them in the medium duty app, is a lame attempt at back peddling. You'd pose the exact same argument in a thread about light duty engines. opcorn:
hell, drum air brakes stop a semi just fine. as long as they are S cam they are cheap, easy to service and usually last 100k on the fuel truck fleet i service that does all city driving. i dont like the power piston deal discs, kind a PITA, butneither are as bad as hydraulic drums, or air brake wedge ones. my back gets tired of smashing the wedge drums with a sledge to break them off the truck when the wedge wont back off.
How old are you... 90 somthin? How old are you... 90 somthin? You really think that Cat couldnt come out with a V8 that would work in todays OTR trucks...are you serious." in-line dominance in OTR trucks has absolutely no relevance to light duty trucks (aka pickups)." How do u figure other than the fact that the motors are bigger in OTR trucks . What changes? An inline six diesel in a pickup is the same thing as a rig just smaller. Where as a powerstroke diesel is a cluster **** of rotating mass. 8V71's, 12V71's, 8V92's, 3408. A C-15 would out pull one of those on any grade. But here is the bottom line i am not bias to any motor. But the fact is an inline six is much better than a V8. All of us have some bad ass diesel pickups. And just like OTR trucks they all have a different logo on the hood and a different motor underneath. But there all diesel powered monsters. And thats somthing everyone on here can agree on Chevy,Ford,Dodge,Cummins,Duramax,Powerstroke. All beasts.imp: Its like bein in a club. Not everybody has a diesel powered truck. How many of you guys have ever been fueling up and somebody pulls in with another Diesel pickup and you started talkin about what you have done to it etc. I would be proud to be driving any of these trucks. Because nothin runs like DIESEL engine.
Yep, that's right, OTR is a completely different animal as is Medium duty. Different requirements, goals, usage patterns, economics, different everything. Saying that because something is "better" for OTR or Medium duty makes it better for Light Duty is ridiculous, they have different classifications for a reason, and it's not just so they can provide arbitrary groupings of ratings. Saying that what is good for one MUST be good for anything in a lower weight rating is like saying that because a an LS6 kicks butt in a 70 Chevelle, it must be great in a Civic. Or that weighing over 300 lbs is great for a lineman, so that's what you need in a Quaterback. So, why do you think EVERY modern diesel motor *designed specifically for* light duty trucks is a V design? Everyone whines about the big 3 cutting corners and doing things the cheap way, all in the name of saving money and "economics". So don't you think they can figure out that it would be cheaper to do like Dodge and pick a cheaper to produce and maintain (fewer machined/moving parts) that is already in production so they don't need all the engineering, testing, and infrastructure to support maintenance on a brand new design? Everyone lauds Dodge's "superior" ISB Cummins power plant, but when you get right down to it, Ford and GM invested far more effort, development, engineering, and effort in creating diesels specifically targeted for the Light Duty segment and Dodge went with "smarter" economics and chose a readily available sub-optimal solution that nets them roughly the same price premium that GM and Ford get. Or do you really think Ford/IH and GM/Isuzu spent all that money on brand new V designs just to piss off all you I6 fanatics who know so much more than ALL the engineers who generally agree? Seems to me remarkably like all the "armchair quarter backs" telling what "should have been done" the day after the Super Bowl. BTW, Isuzu already has some fine Medium duty I6 designs that rival or exceed the Cummins rep in the international market and are sized to work just as well as the ISB CTD in light duty trucks. I guess they just wanted to design a new engine for fun? Too bad they didn't consult with you and save all that money… Don’t get me wrong, the CTD is a fantastic motor and I wouldn't be at all hesitant to own one, especially if I was a "hot shot" driver or otherwise fit the profile where a CTD will shine. But I have no patience for people who feel the need to slam anything that is not what they believe is "the one true way" with skewed or backwards logic and assumptions misrepresented as fact. They are all good motors (with the possible exception of the problematic early IH 6.0) and each has strengths and weaknesses that should all be considered when making a decision, and the "I6" or "designed for medium duty" arguement does not really have much to do with it in most cases... This and much more have been discussed here more than enough already and I don't feel like going over it all again just to satisfy every new arrival that can't follow logical cause and effect.
BadDog, Amen brother BigChardCummins, wise men only speak when they know what they are talking about. So, do the wise thing.......
Eat One Baddog Bad Dogs a lil pup lost without a collar...He just types so much crap that by the time you get done reading it you might as well agree with what you just read because you wasted 3 hours of your life reading it why not. I would like to know how many of you guys actually have a profession in the diesel field...???
BigChadCummins, Do you feel good about yourself yet? Cause your doing a fine job of making an jackass of yourself.rotfl It wouldnt take you 3 hours to read if you had just stayed in school long enough to learn how to read
LOL, I have a collar, and a chain, just ask my wife... Sorry, didn't mean to overwhelm you. Let me see if I can summarize to keep it short just for you: Your wrong... For more details of why, you can read my previous post... rotfl Sorry, couldn't resist... I do find it funny that the people who make assertions of opinion without anything but that opinion to back it up, are generally the first to resort to juvenile taunts. And as for working in "the field", that carries no weight. I know people with extensive experience in fleet and OTR shop work who have all sorts of varied *opinion* on what's the best based on their *personal* experience. I've head that "I work in the field" excuse used to support opinions that Fords are best, Chevy is best, Dodge is best, Mack is best, Cummins is best, Cat is best, Intel is best, Motorola is best, Apple is best, and on, and on… It's all just opinion, perhaps based on wildly different criteria, and yours is no different. You have experiences and have formed an opinion, but that is no more or less valid than any other, unless you can back it up with fact and logical debate, and childish jabs don't count. And having people around you that agree also does not make you right, it just means that you all came to the same opinion, probably for a variety of different reasons and with different experiences. Personal experience plays into the opinions we form ourselves, but it takes a lot more than that if you want to make the argument to someone else, especially if that person's opinions already differ from yours. So, you have your opinion, I have mine, and we both have people on this site that agree, and those that disagree. I only jumped on board because of the "attitude" of your earlier post and I have no problem with the fact that you and I disagree and will probably continue to disagree. Welcome to the site, and please don't take this as a personal vendetta between you and I. Oh, and sorry to waste another 3 hours of your life, it only took me 10 minutes or so to type it, maybe less…
Let me see, 35+ years of working on and driving DIESEL powered trucks, heavy equipment, and boats. I think that would do.
Your opinion made sense up until some of these thoughts. How was the Cummins (or I6 design) sub-optimal? Maybe you have already gone over this, but why is a V8 design, in your opinion, better for light duty use? Also, how was the Dmax and PSD a brand new design, other than the fuel systems invented by other manufacturers? Of course, they have more valves and more aluminum in some cases, but nothing groundbreaking that I know of, except for the fuel system and related ECM controls. Also, are you saying Ford and GM flipped the bill for these engines development? Seems to me that most of the money would have been spent by Navistar and Isuzu.
I've gone over my views on it in other posts, but I'll give a short(ish) version again. At least shorter than the others taken separately… Sorry, BCC, you probably should just skip this one… It is my opinion, which is apparently the same as GM/Issuzu and Ford/NS/IH that the V8 is superior for the light truck market. This is mainly due to the broader torque curve (practically flat from 1800-4000k and beyond without the factory crippled computers) in the case of the DMax, and somewhat less so with the various PS. They also tend to have a wider over all rpm range and far less vibration. The I6 designs tend to be more "peaky" and are much happier with sustained runs in a fairly narrow rpm range such as "hot shots" and the like, and of course, better over-all longevity. And, if you drive it right, they generally seem to get better fuel economy for the same work. But the "peakish" torque curve and more narrow rpm range cuase some problems with typical LD gear selection limitations (basically, it wants a gear splitter) and the quick low rpm rise in torque plays havoc with most LD automatics. So, since LD trucks typically have a much more varied usage pattern (as long as it's does not belong to a hot shotter or RV fanatic), and are much more frequenly used for a combination of daily driver chores, runs to HD, camping trips, and only (relatively) occasional trips down the highway with a heavy "toy" or "RV" of some sort behind them, the V8 provides a better over all package for most of us. Of course, the later Cummins motors have adopted pre-injection and other features that make it more acceptable for the typical LD crowd. And the DMax/Stroke (at least until the 6.0) has been encroached considerably on the long haul longevity and dedicated towing areas where the I6 is king. Plus how many people really want or need an LD truck to go much over 200k? So it's not as big an issue as it once was, but still, IMO, the I6 *would* be suboptimal for my usage, and I believe that is generally true for the segment I feel I represent, which is the largest part of the heavy LD crowd. Not that I would hesitate in any way to choose a Cummins if some of the other problems with the package were addressed (like a real Crew Cab, better auto, and something more along the lines of the previous body, which I have owned before). The shortcomings (in my mind) are no where near deal breakers, and it does bring some great stuff to the table as well, so it makes a fine engine in it's own right. I just believe that totals stack up in favor of a V8, though not by a whole lot. So the comment on the Cummins being "sub optimal" was in no way intended as a slander against the Cummins. Just that I believe the characteristics V8 fits the largest part of the target market segment better than the characteristics of an I6, and I believe that Dodge had more interest in the easy, economical acquisition of a well known "brand" (much like "Eddie Bower", "Shelby", and others) more than choosing what was "best" for the segment. As far as the "new designs", other than changes in materials, head design, intake/exhaust geometry, emissions, and of course, computers and injectors (pre-ignition, higher rail pressures, etc), what has changed in any IC engine in the last 50 years? Both the DMax and 6.0PS were brand new designs specifically targeted at the HD end of the LD market. Brand new head designs (especially the DMax) and injection systems were used, but the key to me is the choice of a V config for the reasons I mentioned. There is also the easier packaging, but if Dodge can do it, and GM was making major package changes at the same time the DMax was introduced, so I'm sure they could get an I6 in there IF they thought it was the best decision. They could certainly have saved money AND time to market as well as support costs by using an Isuzu I6 comparable to the Cummins, but they feel (rightly so, as is obviously my opinion) that the V8 brought things to the table that made it the right choice for their "new" design. On who paid the bill? Who knows... Ford and GM have part ownership and make investments into relevant projects in NS/IH and Isuzu respectively. How much, what percentage, and how much direct influence I have no real clue, that's why I attributed the investment to all parties. I do know that Ford's influence has been blamed for the early 6.0 fiasco, but again, it's all just rumors. But the fact is, they did choose to bank on V8 as the right choice when they could just as easily gotten behind (whatever their contribution and influence) an I6, I4, or some other design. To say it one more time so that nobody gets me wrong, I have nothing against a Cummins or even the Ram that "it comes wrapped with" that so many seem to look down on. Frankly, if Dodge had offered a crew cab in '02, I would probably have gone with another Ram to replace my '08. That would have been largely due to my early concerns about the (then) brand new DMax. I was a bit concerned that there would be something of the nature of the 6.0 intro. But fortunately, I have never regretted the choice I made nor would I change it if I could go back and get a Cummins Ram with a real crew cab.
How many times do you actually rev past 2500 rpm? I for one towing or empty never do, I do not have to. Also, you need to start making a distinction between the 12 valve Cummins and the electronic Cummins engines. The 12 valve is "peaky" from the factory because the governor is built in such a way as to defuel the engine at about 2700 rpm and is defueled completely around 3000 rpm. That is NOT because it is an I6, it is because Cummins and Dodge realized that their engine does not need to rev high like a Dmax or PSD (which those should not really need revved either unless you are hotrodding around in which case you are not using the truck for its intended use). It takes about 250 bucks (governor springs and 60 lb valve springs) to make my 12 valve rev to 4000 and make power to 3500 or so, which puts in right in the ballpark of your Dmax. Of course, due to the characteristics of the I6, I should never have to rev it that high unless I am sled pulling or racing, but it is there. The electronic engines, of course, are a different story as they rev pretty high from the factory and are not at all peaky as you always like to point out. Another thing, you make it sound like the V8 design was new for GM and Ford. I am pretty sure they have both used V8s since the early 80s. Maybe since that worked (kinda), they decided to stick with the V8 design. I wonder what your opinion would be if you had bought a Dodge and not a GM. Would you be talking up all the reasons an I6 is better and a V8 is not? I, for one, have owned both, and in my opinion, the I6 is better for towing AND all around driving. The slightly better mileage (in most cases), greater longevity, and less complicated design are just bonuses.
Russ can continue on his journey of how the V8 was specifically designed for an LD and the Cummins just got stuck in, and that the Cummins is peaky and isn't as good as a V8 for driving....yada yada...blah blah. The Cummins Dodges outpull the GM's and Fords when it comes to the hills under some big heavy loads. Why? Is it the inline 6? I don't know, but whatever it is it works, regardless if Dodge just "chose" the engine because it was economically smart or not. The V8's are better for around town than the ISB? I will admit that I have agreed on this once before, but mainly to just let a thread die off. I don't think so. I never run out of RPM's and the truck pulls great from 1,700RPM's to 3,200RPM's. THe argument that the V8 is better around town just seems silly to me, because I have never seen or experienced the V8's perform any better. I have driven both the 7.3 and 6.0 Ford and an LLY Dmax. Nothing impressive, infact I found the 6.0 Ford to be way too high revving for my taste and the 7.3 to be somewhat of a dog. THe Dmax was ok, but nothing special there. With that said, I don't really see how my ISB has any advantages over the others in town either, except not winding the snot out of it like the 6.0PSD. However, I have never driven a 12v Dodge, and wouldn't be suprised if it's in town driveability isn't quite as effective as the others since it's RPM peak is lower than the ISB, don't know, never drove one. I don't see any of the diesel engines having an advantage over the other period. Yes Russ, that means I see no advantage of any of the different V8's over the ISB's in town. THe only advantage I see any of them having over the rest is over the road towing where the Ram Cummins rule.
